Free Living Bully

[hoegaandit]

I just wondered how many if any on this forum try to let their bullies have a life of their own. To accept that he or she is a different species with different senses and sensibilities, and in the wild would live a particular way, hunting and finding or making a place to sleep and being watchful and alive. I don't mean this as some sort of romantic mush, nor deny the inter-species connection as usual in particular where a puppy is taken from its mother at around six weeks and reared with a human family. (Dogs were found in tests in some respects to be even more sensitive to human emotions than other humans). But there seems to be so much emphasis on the dog obeying its owner, and fitting in with the owner's lifestyle, and even being treated as if it were a human.

While I have reservations about Cesar Millan's methods, I think he is great with dogs and this is one of the main points he makes. For instance he says it is fine for dogs to sleep in your bed if you are happy with that, as dogs in a pack would normally sleep together and the human family becomes the dog pack.

When we go for walks I let our (four year old) boy off lead about 95% of the time, even when we are walking the streets, even though this is not legal here (although not very uncommon here). Also we let him choose to some extent where he wants to go for walks (he usually prefers to go in the car rather than walk around the local block, and gets more excited at certain walks than others and how high his tail is is a good indicator of how much he is enjoying himself). Also, subject to certain parameters (eg he can't walk into gardens when we are walking the streets, must stop and let him put his lead on if required, and must stop instantly if shouted at eg if crossing a street when a car is coming). But I figure the walk is 90% for him so he can generally spend as much time as he wants sniffing and marking - and he does that a lot. When Elizabeth Marshall wrote her book about observing dogs living free she went following one dog as he went on his nightly rituals, walking the streets. Mainly he was just doing what our boy does - sniffing and marking. It may not mean much to us, but it obviously means everything to our dogs.

I have a major problem with Marshall's approasch of only catering to her dog's basic food and medical needs, but I wonder if there isn't some way one can reconcile ensuring your dog is healthy and safe but at the same time allowing him or her an outlet to have choices and to be as free as possible despite living in human society. Anyway, that is what I try to do and I believe this contrubutes to our dog being happy and well adjusted.

[BeachBullyPC]

As far as leashes go, mine are off-leash 90% of the time.  We walk in the canyons, beaches, etc. where they can be off-leash and they're both actually much better without one than with one and listen very well when not on a leash.  If by chance we are walking on the sidewalks near our home, they have to be on leash because we live in a major city, with very, very busy streets and we've had idiots across a 4 lane street attempt to call my dogs to come to them, in between all the cars rushing past!  Of course, they "shouldn't" go, but dogs are unpredictable and a tragedy can occur in a matter of seconds. 

That said, I don't think there were any Bulldogs "in the wild."  I also can't ever imagine  Bulldog hunting for food, unless searching the house for stray kibble pieces counts!  These are man-made dogs, that require the help of a man to reproduce otherwise they would become extinct.  You can't compare them to dogs like huskies because they are simply not like that.  Bulldogs are more like their human owners than other dogs.   Which is why I always said a name like Darwin would be very funny for a Bulldog since no theory of evolution applies to these dogs. 

Both of my dogs are very happy and very well adjusted. And, they are treated like gigantic babies.  They're always happy, follow me everywhere (at their own free will!), including the bathroom and love to be near me every chance they get.  My dogs come to me when they want to be held and loved.  For the butt sniffing and licking of private parts? They've got each other. That's as "dog" as my 2 Bulldogs will ever be and I wouldn't have it any other way!

[mtc]

I'd be too afraid to take Meaty out off leash.  He's got no "street smarts" and would run out into the street and get hit.

And then there's that not coming when he's called... well... when I want him.

Any suggestions in how I might try this type of "off leash" playtime?

(though he gets hyper excited at the very sight of his leash!)

[hoegaandit]

BeachbullyPC - knew I would open myself up to that comment about bulldogs not being "wild"; however I think you can see the wild dog underneath (eg turning round and round scraping a bed etc).

mtc - the main thing is to make coming to you rewarding. Our boy hates to finish his walks, so I always spend some time scratching his neck etc at the end of the walk. See eg http://doglinks.co.nz/problems/barry_place/running_away.htm or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsFxJNKoqpo or http://www.canismajor.com/dog/hereboy.html#Come

I think maybe a  more important command is the "STOP!" command - can be a lifesaver. Our boy also does not have a great road sense. You can make your dog sit before ever crossing the road.

Personally I think off lead is the natural and best way to go wherever possible (subject to safety being the paramount consideration - I am virtually always watching our boy like a hawk when off lead). Best of luck with trying that!

[hoegaandit]

Here is a thread of us walking off lead on the sidewalks last year - http://bulldogdomain.com/forum/index.php?topic=26251.msg326790#msg326790

[DaBabaDoo]

Hoegaandit:  Where do you live?  Just wondering what kind of environment it is?

I live in a city, in an apartment, so for me free-walking is not an option.  One, it's too dangerous for her with traffic; Two, I have to take animal control laws seriously because I am not prepared to pay the fines or, even worse, be kicked out of my apartment for not following codes.  But, when we take her to my mother-in-laws, who has a large back yard, I let Maddy out in the yard under my supervision, she knows not to wander off the property.

Even so, I think Maddy is a perfectly happy and well-adjusted dog.  I think we allow her an appropriate outlet for her animal instincts.  And I do follow the methods of Cesar Millan.  Exercise, Discipline, Affection; and we allow her run of the house, but she does have her boundaries and limitations.  A dog without boundaries is a dog that will continue to find trouble, IMO.

[hoegaandit]

Dababadoo - we live in Wellington, the capital of New Zealand. Mainly we walk in reserves (eg river walks) or at the beach, but also a lot on suburban streets. I have walked him off lead in town (city centre) - and there is a busker with a sweet little bullie who always walks off lead in town, but mainly I put the lead on there, because there are so many distractions.

I want to emphasise my point is not at all per se about walking off lead on the streets. Unless you are quite comfortable your boy or girl will stop immediately you command, you shouldn't do that, for safety reasons. My point is more about seeing how far you can allow your dog to do the things he or she would if you weren't there at all, to allow him to exercise his "animal instincts" as you describe them. In our beachside suburb, some dogs are allowed to walk around on their own (rare nowadays, although commonplace forty/fifty years ago when I was a kid). I sort of like to see the freedom these dogs have, but I could obviously never for various reasons allow our boy to do that. But I can give him a lot of freedom and choices on his walks, allow him to choose his foods (-once he even found a dried up gull carcase on a deserted shore, and after thinking a little, I didn't take it from him - I made a judgment call there wasn't a risk and clever boy for finding it!)

[BeachBullyPC]

When I take my boys into the canyon, they will run with each other, but come back to my side every 30 seconds or so to make sure I didn't leave them! Even if they are in front of me, they will stop and wait until I catch up.  They are just not ones to ever wander from my side.  And if a person is running on the trail with their off-leash dog(s), mine will move to the side to allow them to pass and not think twice about it.  They were never ones to bolt from me, and if I say their name, they stop and wait for me to get to them.   But, I only let the off-leash in the canyons/beach, because of the fact that the streets in downtown San Diego aren't the safest and we will be very heavily fined if we get caught. Not worth it in my opinion!

We also never use a leash when taking them out to potty by our apartment.  I never understood people having to close the door immediately upon entering their home for fear of their dog bolting and not coming back!  When I get the mail, I leave the front door wide open, giving them an option to either walk out with me or stay. Usually, they come and stay right by my side, regardless of who is around.  One day, my husband took both of them out to poop.  Right after they are done, they come back inside. Well, PC came back but MB was busy playing with a stick he found and my husband didn't notice until he closed the front door and came in that MB is missing!  He ran to find him, and poor MB was on the doormat,  stick in mouth,  just waiting to be let in! Yup, they got it good here and would never dream of running away from home!

Here's a picture of the boys doing what they do best in the canyon.  Pure Bulldog bliss!  

[hoegaandit]

That is a great action pic - and those are some fit bullies!

Yeah - our boy is always watching the various family members when we go on a walk (and gets concerned if eg our teenage son goes a different route); however he is reasonably independent also, and on some river or beach walks might be as much as a couple of hundred yards away (-you have to wave your arms in that situation otherwise he can't see you, b/c bullies eyesight is not as good as ours).

Also we sometimes leave the front door open and he just sits or lies by the door or even on the flagstones just outside if it is hot and he wants to cool down. Although I have to say I am always checking on him every few minutes when the front door is open (eg a skateboarder rolling down the street outside would be a very strong incentive for him to investigate!) (If he did ever go wandering - which he never will - he would know his way back as he has even guided his human teenage sister back home when she's taken him on a long walk and gotten temporarily lost in our fairly large and rambling suburb).

[hoegaandit]

I thouht this was a really nice article on a dogster blog about (at least sometimes) following your dog rather than the other way round - http://www.networkedblogs.com/4mvYL

[ksdstny]

@hoe....i can see both sides of the equation. i think (at least with my two) they have quite a bit of "in the wild" behavior, off leash is just a portion of it. when you have two bullies i think that quite alot of the "dog" needs are being met, along with the "social" interaction and adoration they get from us. i imagine there are some that discourage the dog behavior, we dont. they know how much they are loved.

they love to run free but they also give me a look now n then to check in. i'm happy with that, i like that they are independant and know i'll be where they left me. at home steeler is happiest when he's in close contact with us. they LOVE the private beach we have at our vacation home along the Colorado River. i spend time playing with them and then they go experience it together. its very cool to watch, them frolicking in the river and MUD.

we also do a "find" game which a trainer turned me onto. i played alot of diff games with harlow during her recovery from knee surgery. we needed to pass the time. i think thats why she is as smart as she is. alot of time spent on brain/thinking activities which i would assume explains her interaction on a more human level. we started small putting a treat under a paper cup with the other two cups empty....they found it and were highly rewarded. they now find things all over the family room and kitchen. i also use this when we're walking if i want to distract them in a positive manner. works VERY well.

you also discover such big personality differences....harlow is more "human" in her behavior, she's a diva, very feminine in alot of ways, smart as a whip and lives life on her terms most of the time and i let her. she is such a good girl and we've been through so much that i want her to enjoy her life. she leads the way on most walks and i am so fine with that, she loves when i chase her with her ball, she almost "whinnies" like a horse. she's so happy. she interacts with me on a much more human level then steeler does. steeler is more "dog" in his behavior even tho he is really affectionate. i dont know if this is the second child syndrome, lol or just him. when i'm cooking he"s at my feet and harlow about 2 feet away. we're def. a pack....

they also sleep with us. steeler used to prefer his crate but now is in bed, so we have 125 lbs of bulldog in our bed....kenny is now saying we need a bigger bed!! ya think.

i also live in a very populated area and my dogs cannot be off leash for their safety. they know STOP, i totally agree that its a very important command to teach. they also sit unleashed in the front yard and dont move but i am right there since i would never trust them 100%. thanks for the great reading material. i'm going to read it when i have a minute.

[hoegaandit]

ksdstny

I think Harlow and Steeler (incidentally as well as a number of other bullies on this site) live great lives. For me, it's a question of how I can make my boy's short life better or as good as it can reasonably be. That sure involves me listening to what he wants. I think the article said the sort of thing I was trying to write, but said things rather better.

Your point about having two bullies is so right. Even though our boy was the sole one in the litter, and the breeder (who I think did know her stuff) had moved him from his mom quite early and he lived in a pen in her living room - ie has been habituated to human rather than dog company all his life - I am sure he would LOVE it if we could get him a bitch as company. (The recession, more like a depression, in my industry has prevented that so far). He doesn't really play much at all with other dogs, though he loves to meet them (as well as humans) - sometimes, like yesterday there was a frenchie at the beach who took a real shine to him and was rushing around and around him, and he did show some signs of wanting to play with the frenchie. (Mainly he plays with me though with my hand mimicking attacking him - although we've toned that down in recent years). I mean though - it would obviously be more natural for there to be at least two dogs in a pack. (I believe Switzerland is moving towards legislating this as a requirement). Another example of this - on our local forum a very good bullie owner had problems with her dog humping - so in down to earth fashion she got a bitch - problem solved!

I'm of course not one that thinks our bullies are really wild animals. If left to their own devices I think bullies would probably be the second to go, after bassets. And of course animals learn the behaviours of different species eg our dogs always got on great with our cats, even though eg a cat wagging or waving its tail is not a happy cat! - the dogs would soon learn that! It is very interesting that Harlow is more atturned to humans than Steeler; I would suspect this arose from the attention you gave more than anything else. Young animals (and children) have a plasticity which allows them to absorb what is important in their environment. In the past people thought you could teach a mynah or parrot to talk, but it wouldn't understand. Now, by changing the method of instruction to allow copying behavior the same way as a mother parrot might teach, they have started to overcome these comprehension difficulties. Experiments in NZ with other birds have shown them to be genuinely quite intelligent; so it is quite within the bounds of possibility that a dog like Harlow can be taught itemns indicative of a human intelligence. (But maybe she is just a smart dog!)

Lovely to read of the fun the dogs have next the Colorado River!

Cheers


 

[ksdstny]

i agree with you! now some of the personality difference between my dogs could simply just be as simple as that. but .... that said, i do believe steeler would be a bit of a different dog if he was the ONLY dog. it was a bit crazy here when he was little. harlow is so laid back and easy and steeler is very far from that. i had a few days where i was pulling my hair out. thankfully those days are far and few. what is interesting to me is that even though harlow reacts on a more human level, steeler has a bigger capacity to love. interesting huh. i also know that i probably have a bit of a dysfunctional attachment to harlow and a more normal one with steeler. that i'm sure comes with all i went through with her when she was little. we bonded in such a way. jokingly all i can say is that that is not the only dysfunction in my life and it is what it is. lol

i also agree on the importance of giving them a happy and fulfulling life. they get different needs met by me and my hubby. i love that and i love that they know the difference too.

steeler loves to play with other dogs....harlow not so much. she plays with steeler and my kids dogs. if we meet dogs when we're out n about she's a bit of a bitch. not aggressive just bitchy. her terms. shocking i know, hahaha.

we also played rough with harlow, until we got steeler, he's just to big and powerful for that type of play on a reg. basis. maybe when he matures more and has more control, he still exhibits some "rude" behavior so i am always working on that.  he is still a baby tho so i know it will get better and better.  (he is only 15 mos) did you have an issue with this with your boy? steel is a big guy also so he can hurt someone or another pup totally by accident if not careful. i need to make sure his manners are in place, as i said he's coming along but i am always interested in hearing what other peeps have done!

believe me i can relate to the recession/depression, its not great here either....what do you do?

[LynnKing]

We call it "reading the newspaper, reading all the news that's fit to sniff". When we let out dogs out in the morning, they all spend time sniffing, marking and learning about everything that happened during the night. I don't necessarily think it's "wild" behavior, dogs are intelligent, have a great sense of smell and are curious about their world.

Our dogs are rarely on leash. Around here we have plenty of old logging roads/discontinued roads that make terrific walking paths. We don't force them to walk in any particular direction, they sort of meander, sniff, run in the woods, come back and check in with us, roll, mark and generally have a good time. I always carry leashes and really good treats in case the sh*t hits the fan and I need to gather them quickly.

A well trained dog, one that knows "come" or a "stop" command can have a lot more freedom

[ksdstny]

  we call it "checking for messages". some days there are lots of them, other days not so much. lol