Giving up the monsters

[kris]

I wanted to write this to everyone that has been such a big help to our family in regards to Eddy and Leroy.  You all know it has been one thing after another for me and I was at my wits end trying to keep us all together.  Allergies, Toileting issues, extreme fighting and all seriious issues.  Leroy growled at me last night and went into an attack stance....never happened to me before and I was pretty scared although I did my best not to show it.

I am feeling like I am in completley over my head here it is obvious to me.

I really dont know what else to do.  I have done the NILF, the alpha things, dont allow them on furniture, the ignoring of them etc.  I spent a lot of money on allergy testing to get that under control and read everything I can get my hands on.  I just dont get it.

I feel it is in the best interest of all involved to take some steps to rehome both / one of these guys.   I am terrified to place an ad as I could not live with them going to a home where they are not treated well.  I am devastated but simply dont know where to turn or what else to do.  I dont know anyone that would be interested - probably because they know the issues I face.  Can anyone offer any help / advice?  I am so distraught but completely at the end of my  rope!!!

[KMARINO]

Please don't give up the fight! I know you are frustrated, please read my personal/private message i sent to you and try that. What do you have to loose?

[Susan & the bullies]

Kris, my heart goes out to you, I know how hard it must have been coming to this decision and it wasn't arrived at easily. Is there a bulldog rescue group near you? I think an advertisement is asking for trouble.   Sending you a hug.

[BeachBullyPC]

The only thing I can add is that you really shouldn't re-home on your own.  A dog that has demonstrated aggression towards humans is a huge liability. 

Just out of curiosity, did you get them both as puppies?  Good luck with whatever you decide, I know it can't be easy. 

[kris]

The only thing I can add is that you really shouldn't re-home on your own.  A dog that has demonstrated aggression towards humans is a huge liability. 

Just out of curiosity, did you get them both as puppies?  Good luck with whatever you decide, I know it can't be easy. 

Yes, i got them both as pups.  Leroy has NEVER shown aggression until last nite...i would have bet everything I owned that he would have never done that....

[DaBabaDoo]

Can you describe the incident last night? Maybe if you retrace the entire night you could find out if something triggered the aggression?  I don't know if it will help you personally, but if you contact a rescue and tell them what you told us, they are not going to want to get involved.  If they know more about it, maybe...

[kris]

I had company over from about 6pm to 11pm.  Just a friend and her son.  My friend gave Leroy attention - quite a bit of it during the evening.  I don't normally have a lot of company so this was nice for him. 

Then at bedtime (11:30) I nudged him for bed and thats when the incident took place. 

The past few days he has been on the furniture 2x and i noticed him draggin his butt to his crate at bedtime (he is locked in at nite)
He loves his crate and goes in and out during the day.  Normally would go in at nite no problem.  Thats it!

[ksdstny]

oh kris...i know the last year has been such a trial for you and the boys. i just dont know what to say. i have lots of questions like....what do you consider an "attack stance"? are you for sure for sure it was a growl? my dogs talk and it sounds an awful lot like a growl but it isnt, i dont want to seem like i'm questioning what your saying because i'm not. but perception and interpretation can be misunderstood for sure.

i know you have tried so many things, maybe the boys cannot coexist together, i would like to be uber positive and say that alone they would probably not have the same issues. is there any way that you could have someone temporarily take one and give having one a trial?

whatever you decide please know i'm sending you all my best thoughts and hope it all works out well for you and the boys. xo

[kris]

Hi,
Yes, it was most definitely growling and he was getting ready to defend if i would have made any more moves....caught me completely off guard.  I don't know anyone who could take one for even temporary - thats part of the dilemma.  My ex was going to take Eddy and then backed out. I REALLY don't want to let either go and have been working really hard.  I appreciate the help / input / support as its a hard thing.  Having pets should be a lot of fun but I just find it super exhausting.  I am a single mom who works FT and am raising an autistic son and I am EXHAUSTED with these 2 guys.

My current plan = to stand in front of them and eat before feeding them their food.  I make sure it all smells really good.  No look, touch, contact etc. until further notice.  Twice daily walks, even for 10 minutes...I am hiring someone to come and do walks 1x a day as I just cant do it.  Sit, stay for EVERYTHING. 

[DaBabaDoo]

I really want to help out, but I don't know how.  Did you contact any bullie rescues to see if they can help at all?

Also, just so I understand, it's basically Leroy that is the trouble-maker, am I correct?  Like, have you had temperamental issues with Eddy, too,, or does it all seem to stem from Leroy?  And in either case, what are you feeling for yourself?  Do you want to continue trying with both boys, or rehome one, or both?  I know that's a hard question but I also know you've been weighing your options for a very long time now, and you would not make a decision lightly.  What I'm getting at is: if you know in your heart that this has to happen, the first thing you must do is figure out what lifestyle change you are emotionally capable of handling.  From what I'm hearing, it sounds like IF you decide not to keep the boys, there is very little choice but to separate them.  They simply don't seem to be compatible.  That's just my opinion, so if anyone disagrees please speak up.

[Gracie & Bea's Mom]

Hi Kris,
I didn't realize you have an autistic son. You certainly have your hands full!
You might want to contact Lynn King. I know she pops in once in a while. I'm sure she will have some sound advice to help guide you in making your decision.
We will support you with your decision. We know you want wants best for you, your son, and Eddy and Leroy.
Mary

[kris]

I have not contacted rescue because I am hoping there is more I can do.  Hoping to get some tips that have not tried yet.  I dont think there is a bullie rescue in my city - MAYBE toronto...I have talked to a trainer and he says things can go 50/50 with the fighting.  I believe that it is probably best to rehome Eddy as he would be easier to rehome. I am looking for a home quietly among friends etc....

Leroy =toileting issues - growled at me (once only) / extremely bad on the leash / used to listen to me really well could make him do anything no problem include wearing costumes haha / more independant, doesn't need to be by my side all the time / never picks fights with anyone / rushes people as they come in the door, but settles quickly

Eddy = the dominant one of the two, picks the fights with Leroy, claims ownership at dog park over toys / water dishes etc and will fight over them.  Other than that lovely dog, listens, well behaved, walks well on leash etc. / hates costumes, follows me everyplace in the house, really loves to be with his owner.  rushes people at the door, but settles quickly

[hoegaandit]

I think this is a relational thing with you and Leroy and Eddie. My experience is with many dogs including especially when growing up decades ago, and then after a long gap our present boy who is 90lb, big, strong and some might say aggressive (eg very happy to fight a bigger dog if that dog attacks, excellent guard dog). I cannot ever recall any trouble between any of our dogs. If we had two and they started seriously fighting, I would be up so fast with an enormous yell (and if need be physical action), that they wouldn't know what had hit them. Although I haven't followed all your story, I seem to recollect you stating that your dogs only fought when you were there. That's in part why I think it is a relational issue.

I suppose I'm trying to state that, while I try and give our boy a large amount of freedom (walking off lead nearly everywhere, letting him lead the walks, never moving him if he doesn't want, allowing him to get up on the furniture and our bed - where he sleeps - anytime he wants), at the end of the day, I call the shots. If ever I yell at him (quite rare nowadays), he is to stop immediately - and always does. He is never genuinely aggressive to me. Sometimes he growls, like this morning at the beach somehow a barnacle encrusted tyre had washed up and we were playing with it, and he was getting rather possessive, so I just stuck my hand in his mouth, as of course he is not going to bite me. If you have this sort of relationship with your dogs, it seems to me it is extremely unlikely there will be issues, anyway that is my experience. (It may well be different with dogs you haven't had since they were puppies, which has been the case with all our dogs, and also I note with Leroy and Eddie).

I'm trying to relate to your position with our young adult/late teen daughter, who was nipped hard by the big boy on a couple of occasions, and I think in consequence was a bit scared of him. She instituted a NILIF regime (which is not my way) and that worked very well. However there still remains a difference in her relationship with him and mine eg I occasionally get called in to deal with some issue eg someone has dropped something on the floor and the big boy has grabbed it. Or the big boy does not really like anyone else but me putting the collar on him. Or nobody else can walk him off lead on the streets. So all in all what I'm maybe trying to say is that it comes down to your relationship with your dogs, and maybe, realistically, this is something a behaviorist would need to help you with.

Anyway, good luck with what is obviously an all round difficult situation for you and Leroy and Eddie.

[Maxmydog]

I know exactly where you are coming from.  LeRoy and Norm only fight when I"m with them.  NEVER my husband.  I think it has to do with his deep, massive voice vs. my female voice.  What works for me is when I see them together I now get inbetween them. They can never be close when it's just me home.  When I do hear anything I sound the air horn.  This stops them in there tracks, but you have to be quick because the fights happen very quickly.  I have tried pepper spray and that doesn't bother LeRoy.  I even sprayed it down his throat.  Nothing with him.  When I feel the tension, I either put LeRoy in "his room" or I muzzle him.  I know you can't muzzle yours... but separating might be a good idea until the tension wears down.

I'm at the point now where they won't go near each other.  If Norm is laying in the hallway, LeRoy will walk all the way around the house to avoid Norm.  And these fights have gone horribly bad.  Did I ever post after fight pictures here before?

[Bluto's Mom]

I am sorry you are going through this but I really think I know how you feel. I have been there more than once! I agree Lynn King will be able to offer some great advice for you. I know she has helped me on more than one occasion.
I do want to press the issue of getting a full checkup & labs on them if you have not done so already. I would recommend to get a complete blood workup with thyroid function as well as liver function.
I will try to make a very long story short but Bluto put me through the wringer and it is only now that he is a different dog. Bluto had extreme aggression towards people. I adopted Bluto and he did have a questionable past but I started to see his behavior to become worse and worse. I had a gut feeling it was not entirely behavior related. I had worked with him for about 2 years now and only in the last 6 months have I been able to trust him more and have not had any aggressive outbursts at all.
I had found in addition to his past, Bluto had low thyroid as well as an abnormal liver which caused his enzymes to be extremely high. Both of these can cause aggressive behavior. After playing around with different meds and getting his levels back to normal, I can now say Bluto is a normal dog. He was a pshyco before all of this!
It is very scary but you have to still be the top one no matter what is causing it. With Bluto, he was better with me than my husband. It also seemed like he could not handle a lot of stimuli. Normal household activity would send him through the roof. We were all walking on eggshells. I never realized how strong and agile bullies could be until I had to deal with this behavior. It is like he became a tazmanian devil!
It doesn’t sound like you are at this point but it does seem like the behavior is escalating. You will need to make sure everyone is safe, including you & Eddy. When Bluto had his outbursts, now matter how extreme, I would make him go into a down position. If he didn’t listen by verbal command, which he usually didn’t, I would have him by the harness to put him down physically. (I always had a harness or collar on him for something to grab quickly if needed) I would have him down for a minute and see if he calmed….if he didn’t, we would try it a few more times….if he was in his total pshyco mode that there was no redirecting him, he went into the crate if we were close enough. If not, he went into  a different room so everyone was safe. I would let him chill out there for a bit and try again. Nine times out of ten he was a different dog after the time out. If only for a little while. Some days he sounded like he would kill the whole neighborhood if he could get out of his crate!  This kind of let him know who was top dog. Believe me, you will get a workout if you have to resort to this because they are strong and fast so be sure you or any family members can handle him. During his worst period he was in his crate a lot but the number one concern is for everyones safety, including his!
I really think Bluto’s aggression was amplified by his medical conditions. He did have issues before the severe onset but he went totally over the edge. I would get the full workup and go from there. There were days I really questioned myself if I was doing the right thing to keep trying with him and actually having my family at risk. It took 2 years but I really think Bluto is a normal dog now. I can only hope that his meds will continue to work for him and his liver does not get any worse. I wouldn’t want to live through that again. But it was all worth it because I know he would have been put down due to his aggression and we now have a bully we can actually enjoy again. We also started him on prozac in addition to his other meds. Honestly, he is doing so well, I don’t want to take him off of it for fear things will return again.
I am not saying you should or shouldn’t continue to try because only you can make that decision but your number one concern would be that everyone is safe. I wanted to let you know that sometimes not all of it is behavorial and there could be a happy ending for all, like with Bluto.
Hang in there!! (((HUGS)))